United States Ambassador to the Holy See meets with Pope Francis at the Vatican to present his credentials on April 11, 2022. (Credit: Vatican Media.)
（2024.6.22 Crux Senior Correspondent Elise Ann Allen）
ローマ発 – 今夏に退任する米国のジョセフ・ドネリー駐バチカン大使は22日のCRUXとのインタビューで、「バチカンを人間の尊厳を促進する重要なパートナー」と評価し、中国問題や地球温暖化問題での米国とバチカンの立場や考えの違いを指摘しつつ、大げさに表現することを避けた。
大使は、中国問題について、「中国について意見が一致していない」ことを認めたうえで、「我々の経験では、中国（の介在が）なければロシアのウクライナ攻撃は終わっていただろう。中国はロシアに技術や情報、軍事力を維持するための支援を提供している。中国はウイグル族や国内のキリスト教会の一部に対して信じられないほど抑圧的な対応をしている」と批判した。
そして、「このようなことについて、私はバチカンと話し合った」とし、バチカンは我々の懸念を理解しているが、「中国が改善し始めることを期待している。その点は、我々も同様であり、1200万人のカトリック教徒を助けようと手を差し伸べている」と説明。「我々が望むのは、バチカンが、中国で何が起こっているかを非常に明確に把握した上で、（関係改善を）進めることだ」と述べた。
バチカンは先に、上海公会議100周年を祝うイベントと、共産主義革命でバチカンとの国交が断絶される以前の段階で、外交関係を確立し、中国におけるカトリック教会の発展に貢献したとされるセルソ・コスタンティーニ枢機卿を称えるイベントを支援してきた。バチカンのピエトロ・パロリン国務長官は最近、コスタンティーニ枢機卿に関する本の発刊記念シンポジウムで講演し、「中国側から機会が与えられれば、教皇はすぐにも訪中するだろう」と述べている。
大使はまた、教皇が2023年10月に出された使徒的勧告「Laudate Deum」で米国を批判し、特に炭素排出量が多いと指摘された地球温暖化問題にも言及。
勧告で教皇は、「米国の一人当たりの排出量が中国に住む人々の排出量の約2倍、最貧国の平均の約7倍であることを考慮すると、西洋モデルに関連する無責任なライフスタイルを大幅に変更することは、長期的に大きな影響を与えると言えます」と述べている。
この発言に対して大使は、「私たちは事実を認識し、すべての気候目標を達成するために、懸命に努力してきた…。今も、よりきれいな地球、より安全な地球のために日々、努力している。それが私たちがバチカンの提供する情報だ。私たちが（地球温暖化を抑えるために）どれだけ効果的な努力をしているか、もっと理解してもらいたい」と述べた。
（翻訳・編集「カトリック・あい」南條俊二）
Cruxのインタビューでのドネリー大使の一問一答の英語原文は次の通り。
Crux: Why are you stepping down now?
Donnelly: We have a term coming up and finishing, so either way the election goes, I was going to be finished up right after, at the very latest in November. Whether it’s President Biden or someone else, I want to give them the opportunity to put another ambassador in place for another term. This is just a few months short of that, and there’s a lot going on back home and I miss my family as well, so I thought it’s pretty much the right time.
What would you say you have learned about the Vatican in your time as a diplomatic actor here?
I think I already knew this, but just how critical the Vatican, the Holy See, the Holy Father is, to all the big issues of the world. From the moment I set foot here – the first day, there was a Mass for peace in Ukraine in St. Peter’s Basilica – until today, Russia’s unjust invasion of Ukraine has been front and center. The pope has worked on this, everybody in the Vatican has. We as an embassy have coordinated with the Vatican to try to help Ukraine.
When the pope speaks, the whole world listens, and we want to make sure when the Holy Father speaks, he has all of the information available in order to fully understand the issue. So, my job has been to make sure the Vatican understands what we know as the United States, what we’ve seen, the unjustified attack, and they can put that into their equation when they speak.
Additionally, I’ve worked with Cardinal (Matteo) Zuppi extensively on trying to bring Ukrainian children home. We’ve brought over 100 home right now, and that number continues to increase on a constant basis. We’ve worked together as well on trying to seek a path forward for peace in Ukraine. So, when big issues like that are being discussed the Vatican is right in the middle of them.
It’s been said that the Vatican is a good listening post. Has that been your experience?
One hundred percent. It’s exceptional. We are working on seeking peace in Israel and Gaza as well. The Vatican has the Holy Family Church right in Gaza that the Holy Father calls every night, every single night at seven o’clock, he calls the church to find out if everybody is okay, what’s the food situation, how is the water holding out, how are the 500 plus that are living there and all of them have information.
We worked together at one point with the Vatican to help bring a kidnapped sister home from Africa, and the incredible compliment of abilities helped to get that done, because on the United States side we obviously have extraordinarily good intelligence information, the ability to have an embassy throughout the region in different countries, and in effect the Vatican almost has an embassy in every town because they have a church in every town, so when you combine the abilities of the two groups to be able to use it for good, we were able to bring an American sister home.
In terms of collaboration on issues such as Ukraine and Gaza, there are some shared priorities, but there are also differences in strategy and approach. How have you navigated that?
We’re two distinct governments. We don’t line up exactly with any country in the world, so the way I navigate it is I represent the United States, and I’m working with another government, the Holy See, and we agree on so many things. There are some things we don’t agree on exactly, but we have an open and clear discussion on them, and overall, we have an extraordinarily good relationship.
What would you say are the biggest points of convergence between the United States and the Holy See?
The pope’s worldview, I obviously can’t speak for Pope Francis, is to protect human dignity, that every person’s humanity is precious. We feel the same way in the United States. A family who lived in Bucha had the right to live in peace and to raise their family there, and the Russians didn’t have the right to come in and slaughter people on the streets, in an exact copy, almost, of Hitler in 1939. So, the basic human dignity of every person is something that both the Holy See and the United States agree on.
We collaborate every single day on protecting the human dignity of people, we collaborate every day on ensuring that people can be fed, that people can get clean water, that their right to an education is protected. You see Pope Francis and he talks about smelling like the sheep, standing up for every single person that no one is left behind. Well, that’s what we do as a country, that’s what we do throughout the world.
When you look at Israel and Gaza, the world looks to the United States to try to help solve the problem. They look at us as the only place that can come up with a solution that might work. When you look at Ukraine, the whole world looks to the United States to help make sure Ukraine can survive, so we are truly the indispensable nation in this world.
There have been issues with some of your predecessors in terms of the Holy See’s stance on China. Has that also been an issue in your tenure?
Oh sure. We don’t agree on China. Our experience with China has been that without China, Russia’s attack against Ukraine would be over, that China supplies them with technology, with information, with assistance that keeps their war machine rolling. China has been incredibly oppressive against the Uyghurs, and parts of the Church, and the Holy See I think understands these, we’ve talked about this information with them. The Holy See is hoping that China can start to improve, and we do as well, and are reaching out to try to help the 12 million Catholics there, but what we hope is that they do it with a very clear eye of what’s going on in China.
So you would say that they are aware of the red flags, but are hoping for the best?
I can’t speak for them, but we believe that what we see in China is what China really is.
The pope has also been somewhat critical of the United States on the climate agenda. It was the only country he called out by name in his most recent document on the environment. What reverberations has that had?
Well, we know the facts. We know how hard our country has worked to meet all of the climate goals and we continue to pursue that, to work every day for a cleaner planet, for a safer planet, and that’s the information we provide the Holy See. We hope they can see just how well we’re doing.
On a more personal level, what’s going to be your next act after this?
I’m planning on going home. The way the State Department works is you’re not allowed to sign up for a next act until you’re done with the present one, so my efforts right now are to work nonstop to run across the finish line, to work hard every day, and that’s what we’ve been doing.
Just this past weekend, I was in the room with President Biden and Pope Francis at the G7 talking about the most critical issues in the world, talking about Ukraine, and talking about Israel and Gaza, and President Biden’s nonstop efforts, traveling the world, to seek peace. I know that Pope Francis hopes for the same thing.
I’ve grown to love Italy, to love Rome. It’s been an extraordinary opportunity to work with all of the people who work so hard in the Vatican, across the board. People don’t know that it’s not only dedicated priests and others, but it’s laypeople, it’s the sisters, religious sisters, who work across the world every day to feed children, to educate children, in the most difficult, dangerous, unsafe places in the world, so the world of the Holy See is a lot bigger than just Rome. They are making a difference every day across the world.
If you could give a piece advice to your predecessor, regardless of wherever they fall on the political spectrum, what would it be?
The first thing I’ll say is the person directly leading the embassy after me, her name is Laura Hochla, and she’s probably more talented than I am, so she probably doesn’t need much advice from me, she’ll do an extraordinary job.
Anybody else who comes after me, I’d just say be yourself. That you’ll be dealing with a group at the Vatican who are incredibly bright, incredibly hardworking, and our focused on trying to make it so that every person’s life is better, and to never ever forget that when people ask, what country do you represent, you represent the United States.
